119. Creating Apex Turbo, World Records, Class Restrictions w/ Apex Turbo

I started looking at the Turbo thinking, there's gotta be something we could do to get more air flow. Make that Turbo more efficient for the boost levels that we're trying to achieve with a three inch restriction. There's several things about the wheel design. You're not only getting rid of it, you're actually shrinking the core, and you're making actually a stronger wheel. We didn't develop the whole boreless wheel as something that's been done 20 years, 30 years ago. We just developed the way the blades come and converge to an Apex.

Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Minnoxide podcast. I'm your host, Harris, AKA Minnoxide, man of many automotive aspirations, and I'm here with my co-host, Dan, Mr. Gunna Garage. And today we are kicking off the first episode of our PRI series. The backdrop's a little bit different. You may notice that there's a lot more effort that went into this backdrop. We're at the Apex Turbo booth. Many of you may be familiar with the interview we did with Ben Hockman about, what was it, 10 episodes ago, Dan?

Yeah, I don't know. They're all a blur for me.

Our Chicago run. Yeah. So we got to know about Apex Turbos quite a bit, but you guys being a PRI, we wanted the opportunity to, I guess, meet the people behind it, right? So I'll kind of open up the floor to you, Ryan, you're the owner of the company. And Deena, I guess I didn't even ask what your official role was earlier.

I'm also part owner with Ryan, but I was acting general manager.

Okay, gotcha. Well, kind of tell us a little bit about what Apex Turbo is, why it's different than any other turbo on the market, and how you guys got your start and we can kind of go from there.

Okay. Well, Apex Turbo was kind of an envision I had several years ago. I was in the sport of truck and tractor pulling. So tractor pulling, it's kind of like a sport where you soup up a diesel engine and you hook to a sled and you try to pull it as far as you can against other competitors. So what do you want to do? You want more horsepower and try to find an advantage for that. So it's usually a limited class, like kind of like say the turbocharger was a limitation for the class that you're in. And my particular class I used to pull in was called Superfarm. So it was limited to a three inch turbocharger. So three inches wheel inducer and the three inch x-ducer on the turbine side. So that was our limitation. So you'd usually buy like a standard off-the-shelf turbo to put on this vehicle and you try to soup up your engine to maximize pistons, cam, all that stuff with a given turbocharger to try to make the pass or make the power enough to pull the sled or this heavy weight that gets progressively heavier and heavier as you go down a dirt track. And so I was like, what can we do to gain an advantage over like our competition? Because it's very competitive in that sport. So one of the things is the turbo, because that is the limitation is the turbocharger. So we basically, I started looking at the turbo thinking there's got to be something we could do to get more air flow, you know, something that we could do to make that turbo more efficient for the boost levels that we're trying to achieve with a three inch restriction. Because that is definitely our, like, main thing that we got to focus on. Because anytime you get a bigger inducer, you're going to make more horsepower. Do you? Maybe not always. Is there ways you can make more power with a given inducer? Well, yeah. There's a lot of things you can do. So we come up with one advantage. I was starting on the, like, on the turbine side of the wheel.

On the hot side.

On the hot side. So on the hot side, you know, the older style turbochargers had a pretty good size retention nut on the back side of it. So it was like, we need to find a way to get more exhaust out to lower back pressures to allow more air into the engine. So we started machining like that nut down and making it smaller. We weren't going to the point yet. We were just machining the nut down to try to generate more flow out of the turbine to allow more air in. Well, we started doing that and it was gaining horsepower.

Significant amounts. Amounts to alarming to say we're on to something here.

Right. So basically we started machining that down and we started getting creative with the nuts. We're like, man, this is really changing the way the turbochargers are performing. So we're like, next thing you know, we're taking the nut right off and started getting the point, getting the blades. I was hand grinding the nuts down to a point and seeing how that would flow. So then, I was showing this to my wife, Deena, and she's like, this is really something. This is helping you and your customers gain some advantage.

While still remaining legal.

Yeah, it's still legal. It's still three-inch. That's the key, is keeping the bore diameter at the given size. So we took the nut down and we're like, one day we were talking and we're like, this is really something. This is working well.

Yeah.

We're looking at the compressor side. So if it's working on the exhaust side, why won't it work on the compressor side? So there again, she's like, well, you're on to something.

Right. So that's when I started doing some research to see if this is novel.

Has anybody ever done this? So we started researching, going online, going to trade shows.

Went to several industry shows to see if anybody else in the turbo sector was doing anything close to it. And we didn't see anything like it.

And around what time was this, by the way?

This was 2016, 17?

Yep.

So back then, I was like hand manipulating turbos, like making them my own, trying different things. And we were really focusing on that turbine side. Well, there all along, we were like, there's got to be something we could do the compressor side because it's a limitation on both ends. We're making gains on the turbine side. So we started focusing our thoughts on the compressor side.

Or even more so, doing that to the wheel and taking that geometry of those blades, forms a geometrical apex. Hence the name Apex Turbo. That's where the name comes from. So I liked the sound of dual apex.

Right.

So before we ever even made an apex wheel on the compressor side, I had a marketing idea on the dual apex. Will this work? And then when we tried it, we found that it was an even bigger gain on the compressor side.

Yeah, the compressor side ends up being the more significant part of the whole wheel and the way the air flow comes in and out. You know, the turbine side, like if you look at the turbine nuts, we actually do take them down. The cores are a lot smaller. But the key factors is the compressor side. Getting the compressor lighter weight, getting the core tighter was making them more horsepower. So we started, back to our story, 2017, we're looking at trade shows, we're looking at turbo manufacturers, we're looking around, we're like, is anybody doing this? And we didn't see nothing of it.

But then I started doing the patent landscape search, which is the next required step.

Right, see if anybody's ever patented this idea.

And a new product launch is to make sure that there isn't patent rights, or somebody else has the intellectual property on these new novel designs. I'd already been able to determine that it was a novel idea. And then the next step, natural step in any business decision, is to make sure that we can obtain the rights to be able to do it. So it was in 2017 when we filed, I believe that was the date when we filed for the patent, and it was patent pending when we launched Apex Turbo at this very show in 2019. We were just outside this hallway as a new kid on the block, not quite sure how we would be received. You know, you're taking a leap of faith in your vision and your idea and what your company could be when you do that. So launching it at a public venue like that, it turned out to be a great thing. We were very well received. We received a lot of attention that year. People had never seen anything like it. You know, our competitors were interested, of course. They had never seen anything like it. A lot of distributors here at the PRI show, never seen anything like it. We were claiming a 20 percent horsepower advantage over a traditional model or traditional style turbo, meaning with a retention nut in place, without the Apexing design. People felt that 20 percent number was out of this world.

Yeah, it was absurd.

It really turns out that that 20 percent claim of power advantage is conservative. We have a lot of customers that are seen well above that. With the same given size. With the same frame size turbocharger and the same inlet size or wheel sizes, they're seeing that 20 to 30 percent horsepower advantage. You're talking hundreds of horsepower differences.

With the same size.

Which is crazy and hard to believe.

And people think that just eliminating the fastener, big deal. It's not just the big deal because there's several things about the wheel design. You're not only getting rid of it, you're actually shrinking the core and you're making actually a stronger wheel. Because the thing is when you got some of these wheels like that one in particular, when you get rid of that through hole that goes through the compressor wheel, it becomes weaker because we got a place for something to break or fracture or cause issues. When you got a solid core wheel, the stronger piece and the blades are attached to that, it's a stronger piece. And it's not something we didn't develop the whole boreless wheel. It's something that's been done 20 years, 30 years ago. We just developed the way the blades come and converge to an Apex, bringing the blades further to the point, further to the core. That's what we come up with.

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So if we reverse our story, we started thinking about it, you know, I've been thinking about this stuff forever. We've been monkeying with turbos for 15 years, but we're learning what's making them better. And that was one thing, was me hand grinding on the turbine side, which related to the idea of coming up with a compressor side, which requires a lot because it ain't just, you have this in vision, so you have to have a model, and then you have to have somebody cut it for you, and then you have to have the testing. So there's a lot of steps to make this come to reality. So it was a lot, and you're talking not very many years ago, until I was 16, 17, 18, 19, right? I mean, it went very fast to where we are today, and it didn't take us that much time to show how great that really is for like the whole turbocharger industry.

Sure, yeah, like from being, you know, interesting or then the skeptic, you know, this is a big power gain that you're touting its potential. It's really not proven until somebody takes it out to either the dino or their track. So being here at the PRI show, you make a lot of relationships, which is a great place to form relationships with racers and competitors. And we met some people from those early days that were willing to test this for us and take it to their dinos and take it to their track. And it really started to light up some, you know, interest because those numbers were proving to be true.

At what point did you guys realize that, oh, this is serious? Like, who was the first person that went out there and just proved that it was working for you guys? Anybody come to mind?

Well, we have been a part of the truck and tractor pulling world for a long time. That's where we originate. And Ryan was a tractor puller, like he mentioned himself. So we have a lot of people in that world that had a lot of faith in his ability, just from the experiences that he had with his performance shop. But I would say that when it came to an even larger audience of motorsports with drag cars and some of the folks that you'll see here at this show, I would say there's a gentleman named Nicholas Feliciano, who came to see us and was very interested in our design. And he came to me and we're great friends now, I would consider him a friend, wanting to become a dealer right off the bat. And as he was telling me some of his story, I thought, well, let's slow down a step. Let's see if we can get some testing accomplished first and prove to you what we can do. So we arranged for a visit where we would bring some products, some turbos to his dyno in Georgia. And he arranged videographers to be present and a great team, a top tuner in the world to also be present during this testing time. And it was, I think, during that testing period where they were testing on a Honda. It was a four-cylinder Honda.

Yeah, XFWD, full-drive car.

XFWD class.

Yeah, we have no idea. Now this is all like, we don't even know anything about car racing. Now when we come to the 2019 show, we were just hoping to be on one car.

One car.

Because we were on a bunch of trucks.

We were on a bunch of trucks.

Yeah. We were just hoping to talk to one car guy.

And be successful on a car.

And be on one car. But obviously today we're on several. And we have a lot of world records.

But during that testing session is where we really made impact.

We didn't even know what to do, what to even make. We knew it was a 73 millimeter turbocharger limit. You know, it was a 73 millimeter is what you're, you know, which is we specialize in is a bore restriction. So we knew we had to build that. We looked at the rules. We build a turbo to the rules. And we went to the dyno. And a lot of that dyno footage is on today.

It's still out there today.

And you'll see where we brought like three or four different versions because we have a couple different compressor cover sizes and different things that we did for like bearing packs and things that we were testing. But we were gaining hundreds of horsepower each at every dyno pass.

They did a baseline with the turbo manufacturer they had been using. They did a baseline evaluation. And then when they put our product on, they were, it was hundreds of horsepower over. Same spec, same door, same size, same frame size, same engine, same car. Everything else was the same.

Took their turbo, put ours on. And it was like, wow.

So these guys were so excited. They were hugging and high-fiving.

We didn't know why.

And I was freezing to death because it was so cold at this time of year. And they were just celebrating. And I remember Nicholas looked at me and he said, Deena, aren't you happy and excited? I said, I knew this was going to happen. You know, I'm freezing.

Yeah. Please get me in the warp.

So at this point now, I heard you spout off that class, right? So now you've got to immerse yourself in this drag racing world now too, I suppose.

And that's kind of when it happened in the drag racing world that kind of caught wind that we were achieving that.

Well, here's the deal. That was kind of a double-edged sword.

It was.

Because we were the new kids on the block. I had this crazy product that they thought potentially was unsafe because it's different, you know? And we proved that. We proved that our product is not unsafe. It's actually safer because we have such great luck with it. Because we over-designed the product, you know? We go through so many details to how we put our products together, to how they're balanced, to how we do the wheels, and how everything is finally put together and shipped, that we have so much confidence in it. And people were already bad-mouthing us and putting us down, thinking that they wanted to rule us out, because they thought something...

And we were met with some resistance, for sure, when we first got introduced to the drag world. There was some resistance.

A lot of resistance.

People like to put down what they don't know.

Exactly.

And that's why I push for so many questions here, because me and Dan, we try to have an understanding of the various motor sports and stuff that we're involved with. I still don't know anything about dirt racing, by the way. We've got to figure that out at the show, but it's just a matter of figuring things out. So is there any chance you can kind of take us down the path of what are all the different advantages of going with it, like your turbo, right, over a traditional one? Because the most common argument I see is, oh, well, you know, the nut is this much surface area. That's not the biggest, it's not that big of an impact. It's not going to add hundreds of horsepower. What about it being nutless allows for all that? Is there a few different components that allow for that?

Well, you got to stop and think about how fast a turbocharger spins.

That's what I was going to say. That's a lot of RPMs.

I know this area that they claim doesn't do anything, but spin that little area at 140,000 RPMs. I mean, the thing is, is when your core is skinnier, your blade is longer, your core, you know, you're having more, one slice of air at one revolution is going to draw in that much more air. At one revolution, you multiply that by 140, 50, 60,000 times per minute, you're going to have more air flow. And it does. It makes more boost. It makes more, you know, it just...

You also lost some mass.

Yeah, it's lighter.

Unnecessary mass.

I would imagine that allows you to move your blade out further, like you say, to that apex. So that gives you more...

Length.

Yeah, more surface, thin surface area at that same time.

A lot more surface area. So it increases, decreases the weight, increases surface area. So each scoop it makes, it's scooping more air.

Right, and at 140,000 RPMs, that adds up really quick.

A lot. Yeah, it adds up really, really, really fast.

Definitely magnifies.

So when you clean out the exhaust side, and you introduce more in, so think about your engine, lower back pressures, which is a common problem in engines, is back pressure, because it limits your RPMs. Back pressure and RPMs kind of go hand in hand. So you're trying to race, and you're accelerating, you're going high, high, high RPMs. What's your exhaust doing? Following. So if you could have a turbocharger to be so efficient that the exhaust pressure kind of ramps, but your RPMs can keep going, and your exhaust pressure kind of plateaus, or doesn't keep ramping, it's incredible. Because your engines get so much more fresh air, it's going to want to breathe more, it's going to make more top-end mile power, horsepower, everything. So you're going to see faster times, you're going to see more boost, you're going to see cooler temperatures, you're going to see all the best things that a turbocharger guy wants. I mean, it's plain and simple. Like it only makes sense. I mean...

Well, it makes sense, and it also has been proven. Right, right.

Yeah, it's not just like us sitting here saying, we wish this works, we know it works.

Right, right. Yeah, and we have a lot of world champions that can vouch for that too, that, you know, it's been a game changer for them. And that's another nice thing about being here, is seeing our customers come back to visit us. Yeah, I want to hug you. They are so happy.

You know what I mean?

You know, we become friends, and just, you know, we've helped them make their goals in a small way. You know, we've been a little part of their desire to get a personal best, or to improve their time, or, you know, reach a goal. Just recently, we were a part of, you know, there was a big push to break that 200 mile per hour everybody wanted to get into the 200 mile per hour area.

In a sport front-wheel drive class.

In a sport front-wheel drive class. It hadn't been done.

199 was the fastest anybody went, which was crazy fast.

Yeah.

So 200 mile per hour, it was in reach, but it seemed like it was impossible.

It was taking a long time. Nobody had been there until 2024.

Wow.

So.

And then we had three cars go over 200 this year.

And they backed that up several times too.

And that's all your customers then?

Yeah. So we started the 200 mile per hour club, the Apex Turbo 200 mile per hour club.

We need to have a T-shirt for that.

Yeah, we have stickers and badges and they're on the car.

So it's kind of a neat thing now because a lot of people that are going to an Apex Turbo like EVO platforms to Honda platforms to basically anything, import domestic, it don't matter. Say if they've been at that 180s, 190s, whatever, it gets them where they want to be. It pushes them over to that little bit, it gives them over that hump, it gives them that hope, I should say. So when they go to the track and they can do their adjustments, your control of your output, your boost control and everything, once you get everything lined out and they're going faster.

They're not running out of turbo.

No, you're not worried about the turbo. I had a lot of customers say, I got enough turbo, I just got to figure out my car. That's the next big thing is traction control, getting all that stuff. It's huge now. You got turbo, you got air, you got power. It's not even concerned anymore. Now it's down to like an actual race. Yeah. You're not worried about my turbo blowing up or something.

Which is another thing that kind of helps. We've had really good success when it comes to reliability and longevity of our product. We get very, very few return requirements to prepare. So we're proud of that. We take it to a next level quality control check. As far as what goes out our door.

So, what does this do? Because that was going to be one of my questions is, how does this affect serviceability of the turbo? Because now you're not pulling the... You can't pull the wheels out as easily, I would assume, so...

It's actually easier.

Is it?

Surprisingly, the retention nuts that are on the turbine wheel are useless. There's no reason for that to be there. And on the compressor wheel, the original reason would be to screw it to the shaft. The turbine wheel and the shaft are usually one unit, and then the compressor wheel would screw on to the shaft. Without that, now you can view the Apex compressor wheel, it acts like the nut. No, there isn't an extra nut. Oh, okay. It is the nut.

The backside of the wheel is threaded for a nut. Like I said, there's nothing new. Boarless wheels have always been threaded on the... Not always, I'm saying some manufacturers back in the day used to have it, but they still had a nut to be able to service it. You gotta be able to spin it on, spin it off. So how else are you gonna do it by putting a socket on the end of the nut, or on the end of the compressor wheel to take it off? It's either an independent nut, like a steel nut on the aluminum wheel, or now with the newer style billet wheels, it's incorporated into the compressor wheel, like it's machined into the face of the wheel is the nut. So you use it to service it. So one thing that was another challenge is when we get rid of the nut, how are we going to service this thing? You could spin it on, but how are you going to get it off because they get extremely tight. So then we're, that was another one of our ideas, another one of our patented ideas.

We actually did patented it, so we covered the serviceability of an Apex design as well.

So on the, on the exducer plate, so you have this thick plate that goes, that holds the blades to the bottom of the wheel, on the backside of the wheel. You know, it's like the plate, the exducer. So anyways, there's a lot of surface area out there, and it's strong, it's thick. It's a good spot to do stuff. So we're like, we put holes in that plate. So you can, like, either insert dowel pins into the backing plate to lock it, to spin it off, or you use a wrench to go over the wheel and allows you to, to, to tighten it. So we actually, we have a wrench that we patented that goes over the wheel, and you put a torque wrench on it, and you be able to torque the wheel on. So when, you know, we always lock tight it, torque it to spec, and then we balance it. So everything is like one complete unit. And then to take it off, we just warm the wheel up, use a torque wrench, and just, you know, not a torque wrench, but just use a, like a handle wrench, and just take it right off. It services so easy, because you have so much more, like, torquing on a surface out here than you do up here. So the companies that want to try to drive their cores as tight as they can, and still have that nut on there, it's a weak point to try to fasten the torque. You know, I mean, you can easily turn it on, but it's getting back off because them wheels get super tight after you make some runs. Aluminum warms up, the shaft twists, and then it cools down. You do that a couple cycles, that thing's going to get tight, so it's hard to service.

You guys, that was another thing we always kept seeing in the comments, it's like, oh, they're just trying to take away the serviceability from the consumer, you know?

No.

Okay, interesting.

But we don't really-

We wouldn't recommend the consumer to service the motorhome, but there's a reason for that, and it's not to take that away, it's more of a safety thing.

I'd rather send it back to the people that made it.

For sure, because we can put the stamp of approval back on it. And also, as soon as you take those wheels off, or you get into that CHR, past the point where you should be, it needs to be rebalanced. And people are not going to, you know, most people will not have a high-speed BSR balancer in-house that's necessary to make sure that, you know, they're within spec for keeping it balanced. So, we never would advise any of our customers to service the Turbo themselves. We have them send it back to us, and we try to turn it around as quickly as possible. Sometimes it's less than a week. We try to keep that service cost as low as possible, but we want to have that brought back in so that, you know, we have some product liability too, with it being our product, to make sure that it stays balanced. Keeping your Turbo balanced is extremely important.

Yeah, keep the vibration out of the bearing pack. Right, any kind of vibrations and that will destroy a bearing pack pretty quick.

And it's such a high-precision balancing requirement that just most individuals would not have that equipment available to do that. So that's why we want to bring it in-house, and it's a safety thing too, and a product liability thing. So with that being said, with the fact that the balancing is so important, another key aspect of an Apex Turbo design is our triple wall bearing. Yeah, so that helps keep things balanced and riding straight and true, and also gives us some advantage.

That was another challenge when we first did the whole Apexing of the compressor wheel, is now we got a wheel that has more air, exhaust that has more out, so you're spinning it faster. So another challenge was bearings and shaft size. So we had to kind of go back to the drawing board immediately, and we developed, going to a three-bearing set up. So we have two bearings in the back of the turbine to help support the loads of the thrust. So we doubled them up instead of having a single row, and then a reverse thrust in the front. So basically, it can support a lot more shaft load, and also having a double ball bearing helps align the shaft as it's boosting. It's not just like a sloppy effect. The two rows of bearings kind of lock together, and they work as a, you know, like Siamese, they help each other as this thing is boosting. And it keeps the shaft straight in line when it's boosted up, so it keeps your tolerancing more truer around the bore. So anytime you lose your slack in the wheel, and your balance, or if you got to introduce more, like, machining tolerances around the wheel, you're going to lose power. So with our design, we can tighten everything up as tight as we can, keep a more, you know, more like shorter clearances, to allow more boost, you know, a lot more like less, you know, escaping of air flow. So it just helps, you know, with our triple ball bearing, to be able to be more precise, more reliable as far as, like, clearances and that are held a lot tighter. So that's another key factor in our whole design, is the ball bearings, and allowing for a larger shaft, and that's key. So you don't have any flex in the shaft. Anytime you got boost, you got load on the shaft, which causes the wheel to want to kick. So with a straighter shaft and better bearings, it's going to allow everything to kind of stay in line, and be able to run a lot truer.

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Well, that's what I was going to ask. So I was going to say, can you just sell your compressor wheel for people to spin on to other stuff? But because of the way it acts, you need other stuff there to support the faster spinning. It's a unit.

Yeah, it's a unit that works well together.

It's something that you would never just buy, like a drop-in wheel for your Duramax or something. You can do it because the shaft's shorter, and the way we have the shaft drawing that goes into the wheel, and the tight tolerances that we use so there's no slop in the wheel and shaft, we keep that so tight. So you don't want that wheel on the shaft and want to walk on the shaft bore or on the threading. That way at any boost level or at any shaft speed, that thing stays true and it doesn't want to walk or move. And that means reliability and horsepower. That means at the end of the day, you could put 100 runs on this thing and not miss a beat. And that's crucial when it comes to buying a turbocharger.

Well, I think people overestimate how much they can do themselves, too, right? I'm not going to try to repair my own TV. I'm going to go take and get a warranty on it, right? So I don't think anybody's going to be spinning it on themselves. And also, this is like...

Well, they do sell compressor wheels. I know some people, you can get a different design. Sure.

But you also have to remember, we're talking about... This is the upper... I don't want to say upper echelon, but yeah, upper echelon of motorsport, right? You know, I don't want to compare it to F1, but the F1 guys, they're using top-tier facilities, right? Same thing. You're trying to do the same thing sort of here as well. You're not necessarily selling it to 200 horsepower GTIs such as myself. You guys are mostly selling to people who are in a competitive setting, it seems like they're going for that world record and such. So I don't think they're exactly... Well, we've had multiple record holders on the show even. They send their Turbos off back to the other competitors too.

Yeah, after a few rounds even. Well, are you doing... So you started in the diesel, the tractor and truck pull stuff. I don't do any pulls. I've got friends of mine that do, but I dabble in the diesel stuff. I have power strokes and stuff like that. Are you doing... So my wife's 7.3 diesel has a KC Turbo on it. Do you guys offer stuff for your average diesel enthusiast to swap out their OEM design?

We sure have been talking about it.

We have been talking about it. We got a lot of people interested.

That's a big market.

I mean, here's the deal. Somebody goes to a race and they're racing with an Apex Turbo. They go to the race, they want to have the best, but they got to tow that thing there somehow and they want to have a little more power to get them there. So, yeah, we've been thinking about making an Apex Turbo version, which we could. It'd be simple. It's just we're so busy on the performance world that we haven't really been able to stop and try to develop it, which it would be easy.

But it could be coming down the road.

How many employees do you guys have?

There's ten of us.

Relatively small. Like I said, we're just new at this, but we're growing and we're growing steady and strong.

Well, so what does that look like from you're grinding the nut down in your shop? Like this sounds like this was kind of a short period. So when do you go, okay, how do you reach out? So now you have to find somebody to make you housings and things like that. And I mean, did that all move pretty quickly too? Or what does that look like for somebody who has?

No. And then mind you, as soon as we launched in 2019, December 2019, we launched our product. And then we went to ramp up in 2020 and COVID hit.

Yeah, we talked about put the brakes on.

Yeah. So that put a little slow down. I mean, we make almost every component that goes into that turbocharger except for the casted parts. We don't cast.

Okay.

You know, so.

But everything else is made in house.

You know, we make in house. So that gives us a lot of control on the supply chain that way. Fortunately, we have some really great casting suppliers that have been able to step it up and get us what we need, you know, in a timely manner. So we made it through that COVID time without, you know, it was a nice launching a new product and you're growing. You got to get your feet underneath you. And in a way, that slow down, that forced slow down amount gave us a little more time to perfect the product and get our supply chain in order and get materials lined up and do a little bit more growth in the design during those early years.

It was probably a good thing.

It probably was a good thing actually for us.

Some people got really excited about our product too quick. And not to say it was nothing wrong, but it gave us time to develop the whole triple ball bearing thing. And that's that kind of stemmed us from from 2019 to 2021. I think 2021 is when we come out with a triple ball bearing. So it allowed us to get the shafts reworked and get the bearing design finished up. So, you know, there was a little bit of gap there that when things were slow, we were able to develop that and make it stronger and better for for our customers. So if we had had a lot of units out there with the old design, we'd have probably had to get them all in and redo them all because just because he's a perfectionist, right?

Well, that's what that's what stems this. Well, we talked about earlier rules stem or breed innovation, right? So you start off by how can I get around this rule? And then over it, my dad and I do the same when we build stuff at home, we build a deck or whatever you over engineer everything, because that's how you want it to be stronger than you are going to actually need it for.

For sure. Yeah.

That makes a great product.

I'd rather have it go out over than under. You want this thing to be a tank and never see it again.

Right.

But there's things that will happen to it, but I'd rather have that and have a happy customer. But then they want to buy another one just because they're building another car, or they have a friend that has one, or they could tell them how reliable it is. We don't get too many people to buy spares, but some people want to spare as well. They'll buy a spare and never use them, is the thing.

Oh my god, you like spares. I had spares and everything.

Yeah. No, we've had a few customers come here today that are like, I have a spare but I haven't had to open it. It's unreal because they're not used to that. A lot of times they'll go to these big events where it's a week long of running, and they have to have a few turbos with them because they're expecting failure. Something to happen.

You're going to this big money race, and you don't want to be not with a turbo that fits your plumbing and everything, and you just can't go to your neighbor and borrow his turbo. You got to have your own.

As a manufacturer, it's great to hear that they didn't have to have a spare. That says a lot about the quality of our product.

Like my truck and tractor pulling crowd never carries a spare, just because they know what kind of product we have. They know that they don't need a spare because they just know.

I know that crowd. Those guys could rebuild a tractor on a side of the road too. Yeah, it's a different crowd.

It's pretty extreme. It's a really good group, I said.

It is. A lot of great people.

Our great guys, I mean, I got to hand it to them. They're the ones that really push, drove me to be able to have this for the whole world to enjoy.

Because they always want more.

Yeah.

How's the adoption in the tractor pulling world then?

The what's that?

How's the adoption in the pull world then?

Were you met with as much malice in that as you were?

No. I mean, our name was in tractor pulling for a long time. Like, me being a tractor puller for 10, 15 years, my family was in the tractor pulling for 30 plus years. My grandpa was in it. I mean, we were a farming family, farming community. So that's what we did. You souped up your tractor, you go to the fair. You go to the local county fair with your souped up tractor to try to be your neighbor that farms down the road. It's just part of it. It's no different drag race. You want to beat your neighbor. You want to go faster than your neighbor. It's no different tractor pull. You want a more powerful tractor than your neighbor. So that's what we did. Then I turned a business out of it. So I pulled and then I put a dyno in. So then I put a dyno in and I put another dyno in. I had two dynos and then I started building engines. So then I started putting them in tractors. So then that was a better success for me, is to build an engine with our turbo that goes out there and wins.

For somebody else, not himself.

For somebody else, not for myself. We started making a business out of it and hiring people to help. So having that and what I've learned off of that and how to build turbos for that and knowing how they're gonna survive because them guys put them through the test. They'll run 50, 60, 80 runs, extreme out, full on boost for 15 seconds. How many weekends out of the summer and use the same turbo and don't even have a spare.

Yeah, well, it's in the drag world, like they're trying to get their car as light as possible, right? Now do that and then add weight as you go along.

Right.

They'll be like dropping another Honda on top of your car every few feet.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, think about that. You take your diesel pickup, you hook it to this flat iron sled thing, and you try pulling it. The problem is it gets heavier and heavier and heavier and heavier and heavier as it goes. So what happens, you know, your truck is struggling and struggling and was it doing, you know, it starts to spin. So you got to like figure out, how am I going to get it down there faster before the spinning spin out happens? So what do you want to do? You want to go put it in a faster gear, but you can't put it in a faster gear because you don't have enough power. So when you get more power and you put it in a faster gear, you're going to get down there faster and you're going to beat them. So it's no different like drag racing. Same thing. Make power so you can go faster to get to the other end quicker. It's the same thing. But you got to have the power. You got to have the air flow. You know, fuel and air is what makes horsepower. You know, fuel, you can throw fuel in it, but you got to have the air flow to ignite it and make that piston go down harder. I mean, that's what makes horsepower. Yeah. So it's the key things. I mean, I can change piston designs. I can change camshafts. It helps, but it's not like changing a turbocharger. A turbocharger is where the power is at. It makes a huge difference.

So what about testing wise? Because obviously, there was a handful of years there where you're trying to figure things out as you go. When you were developing it, you were changing multiple components, not just one. So what did testing look like, I guess, over the course of those years? I mean, what kind of numbers are you seeing for, like, how much air is flowing and all that compared to, I guess, a competitor? Does anything kind of come to mind on that?

You were running the dino's every day. Well, that's where I learned.

Like, when I run a dino...

A traditional chassis dino, right?

No, an engine dino.

Like, you couple the engine to the dynamometer, and it pulls it down to my given RPM. So, I know back to back when I make a correction in a controlled environment on the same day, whether or not it works or not, how much power it makes. So, say, for instance, I put a competitor's turbo on, and we make 1,500 horsepower. So then, you could tweak the engine, change the fuel, change this, change that. You might be 1,550, but then when you change the turbocharger, and then you're 1,600, 1,700 just by simply changing the turbocharger.

That changes, becomes obvious.

Changing different things in the turbo, yeah, my designs have changed. Not much, like compressor wheel designs, but compressor covers and certain things about the turbo, like tolerances to your diffusers, all this stuff plays a crucial role. With the turbocharger, how it functions. So you could be, you know, little changes here and there could change 20 horse, 30 horse, and all that little bit adds up. So when you have the like the perfect turbo, it's like all those things into one. You got the perfect wheel, get the perfect quenches, you got the perfect tolerance thing. You know, at the end of the day, you're not only 30 horse better, you're 130 horse better than the competition, because it's all of it.

So are you a pen and paper guy? Are you doing this in CAD?

Or where are you doing the designing? No, I do it just by in my mind, and I tell our guys.

We have engineers that we have on staff.

I don't do it myself. I just get an idea, and I tell them, and then they make it happen.

Yeah, and they make it into CAD.

And then we go test it. That's one thing nice about our facility is we got a wacky idea, we cut it, we test it. If it works, awesome. If it don't, we try it again. We'll do something different.

We try to limit him to so many wacky ideas a day.

Well, someone's got to have them, right?

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Our guy, Keith, he loves it when you have a new wacky idea. Yeah, he does.

It seems like you guys are the perfect combination for this, what you guys got going on.

It's a lot of fun. We really enjoy seeing the results that we've been getting. I mean, is it the best? I don't know. Do we try to be? Yes. I mean, we really try our best to really try to have a great product, to have people happy. And when we can see their success, you know, it's huge.

And that's success for us.

Well, I think other people are seeing it too. Do you want to touch base a little bit on how much of a nightmare this has also been with things like you've been having some infringements and things like that? It seems like this is...

Well, I mean, I can enlighten a little bit. Like, you know, people come by and they're like, oh, that's Apex Turbo, you know, awesome. I know so-and-so runs it. You know, they're doing better now, blah, blah, blah. But then when you see other people trying to make similar things, because they walk by here and they say, you know, that and then, well, if you can't beat it, you try to either copy it or join it.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a tough deal. Because if you can't beat it, they're going to try to copy it. And it's a simple thing to do once you already do all the work and then all the steal it.

With all of the resources everyone has today, it's really easy to copy anyone's product, right? But there's rules of engagement when it comes to business, and checking your patent landscape is probably the first one to launching a new product. So, we did that back in, I had some experience with that fortunately for my prior career. And that's step one, really, whenever you have something that you may feel is a novel idea, you have to make sure that it's actually you're the first inventor of that. So, that's step one, doing your due diligence there, and then making those, filing that necessary paperwork to get that going. And then the next step, usually when launching a new product, is to do a public release like we did here at the show. Once you do that, you've opened up the floodgates for anybody to take your idea, steal it, maybe disrespect those patent laws, and we see that. It's unfortunate, we see that, you know, you know, not only in other countries, that may not have the same, you know, laws around that. We'll see it right here in our own, where it's even more frustrating. And yeah, so there's risk there, when you come out with a new product, you got to protect your asset there by making sure that you have that paperwork filed and...

I know, like, my problem was I was always going too fast. You know, I would come up with an idea or do something, and then next thing you know, you know, you give it to 30 people and, you know, it's too late to do any kind of like patenting or anything like that. So she slowed me up, which was a great thing, because I probably would have done it, and then I'd have had nothing to stand on, you know, because we, me and her sat down. I mean, the true story is, when we come up with the idea, it was even Deena's idea as well. Like, she was like, this, if you're doing it on the exhaust side, maybe you ought to do it on the compressor side as well.

I think you might have laughed at me when I first saw that.

Yeah, I mean, I'm like, that's going to be quite a challenge. How are we going to make that happen?

The more I thought of it. Because dual Apex sounds good.

I know, she's the one that said it from the get go. So, of course, I'm laying in bed thinking, man, you know, that would be something. So there again, I get out my hand grinder, and I tried wheeling one down as far as I could, a compressor wheel, and I dyno tested, and it did pick up horsepower. But I still had the shaft through, I still had all that stuff in the way. So then we're like, let's get on this, let's get a model. So we had a model drawn up, we had the whole blade to blade, got rid of the nut, did all that stuff, had a model made, and we had somebody that we work with that does some of our compressor wheels build us one. So he built us a compressor, because we didn't have a five axis machine, where's new at this, you know, this is a dream. So he built us a compressor wheel, we dyno tested it, and we're like, wow, that worked phenomenal. So that's what started it all.

So after that, you know, So don't always laugh at your wife's ideas.

Yeah, no. So that's the whole story like back, back then. But before we even showed the model to anybody, or even talked about it, we me and her went to one of our local bars and sat down. And we had a couple beers and we started, I was talking and she was writing everything about the whole idea behind it. There's like 20 claims that we have on just the compressor wheel. It's not only just, you know, the blades coming to a point, there's a lot of things about that. We even have it right down to internal set screw to jam the shaft to the thing. That's all patented. You know, we have several things about that wheel. Write down like 20 claims, I say. It's not just one. It's a lot of claims about how that wheel works and how it goes on the shaft and everything. So all those claims we wrote and then we submitted to our lawyer and we had it drafted in 2018. It was actually filed in 2018, but 2017 it was drafted.

And then the patent came out 2020.

2020 we got it through.

It went from patent pending to patent did. It went quick. Which is really quick in the patent world. Normally it can take five years.

Usually a lot of back and forth. I feel like I hear patent pending run, you know, people can run for a really long time.

It really can. It kind of depends on how novel the idea is really. So the more novel, the less similar product out there, the less similar idea, the quicker it would get to the full patented status. So that was also another confidence that this is definitely something the world hasn't seen.

Yeah. I mean, turbo chargers have been around for decades, right? This is kind of a whole new innovation. It's exciting.

We feel like it's probably the biggest change in turbo chargers that has been seen at least for the last few, probably 30 years, you know. A lot of companies, they'll make a new wheel. They might make a change to a tip height. They might make a blade configuration change. They may make a turbine housing change or tighten up an AR. What a little small step changes.

Like tweaks.

Little tweaks here and there to launch a new product. So I think, you know, when Apex hit the scene, it was a totally new turbo charger.

Yeah, it's totally different.

And that's just because of his passion and interest in that. You know, it was probably a pretty, you know, stifled area of, you know, new innovation for a long time before we...

Other companies, like, you could tell that people were probably starting to think about it. You know what I mean? They were getting their, like, their hubs really small. You know, still had nuts on everything. But I'm talking, you're getting those hubs pretty small, but you can only do so much when you still got to tighten the wheel and take it off, you know. I've seen nuts go down smaller and smaller, but never taken right off.

Yeah.

Or never tried to get the blades to blade. You know, never tried to fasten it the way we fasten it. You know, never seen any of that. So we did it.

A lot of the people that are saying, hey, that's not going to help. You know, it's only small.

Yeah.

Sometimes what you think, you know, the exact opposite is true.

Right. Can I ask you who, what brand or turbocharger you like to use before that? What you're putting on your engines?

Well, I can be 100% honest. I have a really good relationship with Precision Turbo.

Okay.

We did. I mean, they've been great to us. I mean, they really have. I mean, in the early days, when I was so new at this, you know, we bought a lot of components from them. You know, I have nothing like... They're a great company.

So that was your go-to before this?

It was.

I mean, we got our truck and tractor pulling market, too, as well. You know, I have people that I spoke with and talked to and worked with, you know, on that side of the world. But, you know, as far as like the race cars and stuff, the Precision Turbos, you know, they're...

They're the known leader.

They're the known leader. And, you know, we were working with them. Of course, Garrett, Garrett's got billions of dollars of budgets, you know, and everybody copies Garrett, you know. They can spend the money to do the research.

Well, they have the OEMs, right? So they've got the... They're sitting cushy.

Yeah, Garrett, I mean, they're great, you know. We're just trying to bring something different, you know, right or wrong. We like it. Our customers like it.

And we don't copy any other manufacturer design. So...

Well, you actually did the due diligence to go out and, you know, see if there's a patent and all that. So, yeah, that's that extra step for sure.

Yeah, we scoured the walls. We went to CEMO in Vegas. Me and Deena did in 2018, I believe, and we walked everywhere and we went to all the turbo manufacturers and we looked. Not one person did what we did.

And we spoke with them and we spoke with competitors and said, have you ever thought about it? No, they've never thought about it in any of this.

No, they're like, yeah, no, you know, I mean. So we jumped on it and we did it. And we're happy about it.

So I'm seeing a lot of, again, four-cylinder cars using this. I saw one video of a G80 shop that was starting to do it. Is that just because these works so well for that or has it just not seen widespread adaptation to, I guess, other platforms?

I think it hasn't seen the exposure yet.

So it's not designed for those cars in mind? It could be.

No, it is.

It's designed for anything that needs a turbocharger, really.

I mean, we kind of got into the import world because I think they sought us out.

They were looking for more.

Yeah, they were the ones that were wanting it, so we gave it to them, and they were seeing such great success. It's not just an import turbo, you know, it's for anything. Like one of our great friends, Nicholas Felaciano, you know, LS motors. I mean, if you talk to him about how awesome it works on an LS motor, I mean, he's like, he's tested them all, and he can claim hundreds of horsepower over anything on his motors and his customers' motors. So, you know, and we got some on, you know, on some Hemis, and we got some on, you know, it's just not that many, you know, we're kind of more on that, but we want to be on everything. There's no reason why we can't.

Well, I would absolutely love to see, you know, footage, and, you know, just, again, it's people, especially in the in the car world, are just like, prove it, show me. They need to see it with their own eyes. So, I mean, like, because, like, again, when I was looking you guys up months ago, you know, when I did the first highlight with Sam, the one, the first one I went viral, all I could really find was, like, I think a handful of Civics, and that's pretty much it. So, I mean, you know, seeing, you know, DLS world adopted or the Hemis and all that, that would be super cool to see.

We have some on GTRs.

Yeah, GTRs, you know, and that's a class-restricted class as well. 68. So, I mean, we got our 68 that we just introduced. That's a 68-78. So, you know, they do it on a twin platform, on GTRs. And, you know, they're in a board restriction. So, they're going to see great benefits. One of the customers put one on, you know, first race Audi did his personal best and still gaining. So, I mean, there's a lot coming for him. You know, he's hoping to dive down in the sevens and even faster. So, you know, it's great for them. I just, you know, hope the best for them and, you know, their programs and for, you know, guys that want to jump aboard our product and try it. I think it's going to be a game changer for a lot of these guys. But it ain't all turbo, you know, they got to have their electronics and they got to have everything right because you know, they buy our turbo and think, I got the winning car now. It ain't always a thing. They go to the race and they got 10,000 other things, jumps out of gear or don't shift. Yeah, or you know, you know, blow the bottom out of the engine. You know, if you see that, put the crankshaft in the oil pan. You know, there's other issues. So there's, you know, it ain't, I mean, turbos are just one part of the puzzle, but you got to have it. I mean, if you're going to have it, you might as well have a good one.

That's my favorite thing is again, when we have record holders on, like for example, like Aaron from Enthomoto on the show, you know, he has a very holistic approach to how he does it. Again, you could slap, I mean, you've seen the back of my shirt more bigger, you know, it's not always the solution.

Right, right.

But, you know, it's not just a matter of turbos. I mean, so it's kind of cool that you guys have that perspective as well. So when you were designing this over the course of, you know, a handful of years, were you, did you have that holistic approach in mind? It wasn't just a matter of like, all right, shave this and shave that. You were trying to think about how everything would work together. Well.

Probably not. No, no.

I was kind of not even thinking about being where we are today. I was thinking about getting my customers more horsepower.

He was thinking about his customers 100 percent.

Yeah, I was thinking about at the time, I was going to make this awesome Super Farm Turbo.

This guy wants more and I'm going to give it to him.

And when I show them how great it is on our dyno, they're all going to buy one, which that's exactly what happened. But then we spun off in 30 other directions. So, but no, that's exactly what happened. Like when we, 2019, this thing's never been on the track, never been on a racetrack. It was, we had four of them we brought to PRI, showed them off. We didn't even know if it was going to work. Talk about sweating bullets when you see this thing run for the first time. We ran it on our dyno, great, you know, no problems. But that's a short little run.

Going down a track is different.

Yeah, there's so many different things that could happen during a track pass versus like a five second dyno pass. So, you know, the first time we seen them things run down the track, people in the stands could hear the difference.

Really?

We had people come back to us and say, they did something different.

Yeah, that didn't sound the same.

That was not the same.

They could hear that.

And the guys that ran our turbos went like one and two, one and two, both events. Fresh, you know, brand new product. They did that great. So, it was a game changer in that industry and a game changer in all industries. So, I think that like what we've learned on a tractor pull, and I didn't think it would go like this. I just thought we're going to do it, you know, in that class or a couple other classes. But why not all of it? Why not do them all? Because it works that great.

So, suddenly now you're in the shoes of having to be a business owner.

Exactly. Something that I love, but it's a lot. People don't realize how much it takes to, you know, yeah, you can build a turbo, but I mean, there's a lot of components that you got to, you know.

A lot of moving parts.

You got a lot of things to think about. A lot of things you got to purchase. Yeah. If you want to...

Payroll.

Exactly. I mean, it takes a lot, you know. And of course, people want to come to you and want something for nothing, but you got a lot invested. It's a tough thing, you know. I mean, you can only, you can't give stuff away because it costs a lot of money to put this product out there. We don't buy junk. We put together the best. We won't let it go out the door with nothing but. So, you know, when they get a product, it's, you know, we pour our heart and soul on this thing.

We were talking to one of your other gentlemen here before we got started, and you guys, everything's handmade right there in your facility, right? Hand put together and sent out.

There's nothing that gets either assembled or made outside of our area. You know what I mean? Other than like Deena said, casting and stuff, we don't have casting factories.

No, that's a given on about anybody that's doing stuff, right?

Even like the turbine wheels, but, you know, it's our stuff. We have manufacturers that help us with some products, which, you know, we're appreciative of that, you know, when we get into a bind where we need some things, people step up and they'll make us some compressor wheels or something like that. But, you know, they know it's for us and, you know, we work well together. So, but as far as the complete Turbo, I mean, it's made right in house, and, you know, we put 100% pride in it.

Are you getting pushback from these people that run the events? Are you guys now, you're kind of turning it upside down? Are they getting... Because you're pushing the limits of the restrictions on sizes. Are any of them...

Complaining?

Yeah, are you getting anything from that?

Not really. We did it first.

In the very beginning, we were new, and I think there was some fear of the unknown going on. And there was a certain track owner that gave some pretty big resistance in the early days. But I think we worked through some of that.

I don't know what they're nervous about.

Well, because their buddy Earl complained to their friends with the guy who runs the track.

Exactly.

We've all been on the track. We know how this goes.

I did talk to one of the promoters. Everybody knows who he is. He runs the biggest race of the year. His only concern was, he has to finish that event at a certain time. He didn't want a product on vehicles that created so much power that we'd have oil downs every single run.

Right.

Which is understandable.

That sounds like an import thing.

Well, his biggest fear was having this crazy amounts of horsepower thing that people has not had experience with and have their engines destroyed every pass. Which does is slows the event down, causes issues, you know, but it wasn't. I mean, they're extreme, but they're not that extreme. It's not like you're putting, you know, whatever inside your fuel tank, you know, causing whatever it happened. I mean, it's just like it helps. But I don't know. There was no worries with it. People are going to have trouble no matter what. Who's turbo they run.

Yeah.

It's just power management, you know, knowing what you got to work with. So we haven't had any issues. Guys have been pretty decent with us, I hope.

Yeah. I mean, you know, every year, there's rules that change. So those are things that make it a little hard to forecast or plan too far ahead as a front for a turbocharger manufacturer. You know, the truck and tractor pulling rules change yearly. The drag racing rules can change yearly. Sometimes those rule decisions are not in the perfect timing as far as lining up all of the components that you need to manufacture things. If they changed any more often than that, it would really wreak havoc on a manufacturing business. So, you know, keeping in line with the rules has always been a very high priority for us. Like when we go through the sales process, it's really one of the first questions we ask. You know, share your rules with us. What are your rules so that we know how far we can build this?

Yeah, you don't want to build something somebody can't use.

No, of course not. We're both going to lose at that point. Mostly us, because we'll have to pay it back or redo it.

It's first question, is there any rules? You know, if they tell us there's rule restrictions on any class, then we get to solve the bill off of it. And then the next requirement is your engines. You know, what type of engine you run, whether or not you, you know, what's your RPM limits and, you know, boost requirements and horsepower requirements, things like that. Do we have flow maps? No. I mean, we could generate some, but our products so range so much, different sizes, different things, that we don't really have the need. The only thing our need is, is put it on the dyno, or, you know, put it on the racetrack and see what it does and go from there. But we don't have any flow data on our...

That works too, you guys are proving it anyway.

Well, is there any bread and butter setups that you're selling? Is there any ones that are just flying off the shelves, or is it just such a wide variety that just wouldn't make sense to do flow maps and such?

It's a wide variety. We're kind of a custom made to order. Like when somebody calls in, we have so many varieties, like so many sizes.

Pick a number combination, we can make it.

We can make anything. That's one thing nice about our company. It's not like we only have 10 different models and you have to have one, and one may be one of those. And if your rules is this one, say you got a 67 millimeter bore restriction, say we got a 68 and a 65. Some companies say, well, you can't run 68. It's too big. You have to go with our 65. We don't. We're not like that. If you have a 67 millimeter bore restriction, we can make it 67. So I mean, that's one nice thing about like ours. We're not really stuck to any like certain models or whatever, but we try to fit the rules and try to make them a little universal, do a wheel trim or whatever it takes to make what they need. Because I've had that trouble too. I've called manufacturers 15 years ago and say, I got to run a two and a half inch inducer. And they're like, well, we don't have that, but we can give you a two, three. And I'm like, well, I'm going to have to get that. It's going to have to work.

Now I know I'm short.

Yeah, I already know I'm going to be behind, but what am I going to do? That's one advantage with our Turbos. We can do just about anything.

What's your lead time look like?

Right now, we're about three to four weeks.

Yeah.

Oh, wow. That's not bad at all.

No, obviously, that seems average.

There's times in the year where it gets a little hectic and it can get more like four to five, but we try to keep to that four week lead time.

We've tried to do like refurbs where somebody needs a wheel or bearings one to two weeks and then three to four weeks on brand new builds. So, lead times aren't bad, I mean, really.

We've also had people drop off a Turbo for service that morning, and because they have an event, we take that seriously to get it done that day. Drop everything for this customer and get this done.

Yeah, we've had to. That's how what kind of company we are. We try to cater to our customers, make sure they make their events.

Their success is our success.

Exactly.

Absolutely.

That's 100 percent.

Great way to look at it. Well, in the short time that I've known you guys, it seems like you guys have a very logical way of approaching things which is sometimes rare to see. A lot of people get emotional, especially when it comes to creating products, and like, oh man, I hope it works out there. But I don't know, do you feel the same, Dan?

Yeah. So we've talked to a lot of people that do this stuff, and your exact recipe is what all the successful people are doing.

That's what I want as a consumer.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Some people, so you're talking about longevity. Like I think some people build something in the fact that, oh, I'm going to make money on the service, or like if they're buying a turbo from me every couple years, I'm going to make more. But I see more success in the people that want their product to be, number one, right out the gate, so that they seem to be selling more and having more success than somebody who's like, I'm going to see how much I can milk this one product for.

Yeah. You wouldn't believe how many customers go out to the race track, and then their buddies see how good they do, and then they come and order from us. Why do we want to milk the same customer?

Right.

Why do you want the customer to go out and wreck something, and he sends it back and we charge him a thousand bucks, and he charging over a thousand bucks? I'd rather just him keeping it and running it for five years, but yet six of his buddies buy one of our turbos, we're money ahead.

Yeah.

You don't want that guy to go out, wrecking it constantly, that's more work for us, and we're not making much money on a refurb job. We want to sell new product.

Yeah.

You know, and we want that, you know, longevity, and we want to be able to have that product last for our customers.

We want to be known as an elite product, that's important to us. So that reputation and that image is extremely important to us. I would not want to put out a substandard product. Yeah. Not something that is important, you know, to have more volume in a substandard product. I'd rather sell fewer units that are fantastic.

I mean, turbochargers, they're not all bulletproof. I mean, I can't stand here and say, our turbos will never have a mishap.

No turbocharger manufacturer can say that they won't.

You know, the engine, without the engine, the engine is what drives the turbo, okay? So your engine, that's what tells it, you know, the air flow and how fast it's spinning and what the temperatures are going to make and all that. So if you got too hot of temperatures, it would overspend it, something could happen. You know, if you suck something into it, something can happen. You know, there's so many different things about what the engine is doing to the turbocharger that you can't blame it all on the turbocharger. Usually when something fails in the turbo, right away it's the turbo. But no, what's driving the turbo is the engine, you know? Did something come loose in your valve train or something and shoot through the turbo, cause the bearings to shake out? You don't know. You know, you always hear like, it's a turbo, you know, but it's not always the turbo's fault. You know, there's something-

That applies to all turbos.

All turbos, all manufacturers, they hear it so much, like, you know, if their turbos fail, it's always because, you know, your turbo's junk. That's not always the case.

Well, then they'll go blame the tuner. There's so many- Oh yeah, there's so many-

It ain't always, the owner's never the guy.

Yeah, exactly.

But some people say, it was me.

Yeah, some people will tell ya. Yeah, I forgot that. We've had some people say, I'm sorry, I wanted to show you guys what it could do.

I know, some people are like, I'm so sorry. We're like, we don't care. We just hoped you were gonna do better.

We're rooting for ya. Yeah.

So as we kind of start to wind down here, there's this sweet old lady that went by.

She's giving us the wrap it up side.

Did she?

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Well, I guess on the innovation front, or what else do you guys have coming down to Pipeline? Is there anything that you guys have coming up over the next year or five years? Is it just more expansion into the car market? I mean, what's on the horizon? Sure.

Yeah. Well, actually, you know, we brought a lot of new products here today. We have a big interest in the side-by-side racing world.

Oh yeah. Another huge market.

This little baby turbo here on the end is slated for that class. The one next to it, there's a big draw and attention being sent in the snowmobile sector.

Yeah, 55 millimeter class. There's several race classes. They got all like outlaws and that, but the certain 55 millimeter we built, had a customer come to us today and say that they've seen like 800 horse out of a 55 millimeter, which is absurd.

Yeah.

So, I mean, that just goes to show you, I mean, the tuner that was tuning it put the turbo on, and he had to go over his data, he said like three or four times thinking it cannot be, it cannot be, but it was, which is crazy. So, I mean, and that's something we just do together, like that was something we put together last year, or I'm sorry, this year. I mean, you know, the turbo just, you know, they all act and perform the same. So, no matter if it's 150 millimeter or if it's 50 millimeter, I mean, the concepts are there. So, you just adopt what you learn off of this and make it into that, and it plays hand in hand. I mean, it actually works. So, you know, what we've learned, you know, throughout the course of what I've done in the pulling world, transferring to the car world, transferring to the side by side and snowmobile world, or even on and on. I mean, we talked to all kinds of people, to all kinds of unique applications in it all.

We're on some really crazy units, the semi uphill sled pulling, drag racing, which is a real hoot, watching those beasts barrel up hill.

Pulling a load, right. Barrel and smoke, yeah.

With all their buddies in the cab rooting them on as they...

Yeah, true. Visualize this, you got you, you're driving a semi truck loaded with, I don't know how many pounds of weight, and you're racing somebody. And but you have like six people in the sleeper yelling, go, go, go. I mean, you got your foot basically through the floorboard because you're trying to go as fast as you can, but they're still saying go, go, go. But then you look out your mirror or your side, your window and you're saying, I get them, I get them. Or if you lose, you're thinking, man, I wish I had a one. Or then that's when they call us. So they could be ahead of them. And then their guys are cheering and you know, shouting.

So we're starting to see some attention in that area.

I can't imagine the adrenaline these guys get. Especially the driver when you got four of your screaming buddies.

That's insane.

Go, go, go.

Can you imagine if you could have a buddy in your race car screaming, go, go, go.

You've got a buddy in your race car. That's what you have.

There's screaming going on, but I don't know if it's that. So has any of this made you want to get into anything else? Are you still doing tractor pulls? Are you running a tractor? Are you building engines still?

Yeah, we build engines. I've been out of pulling for 12 years. I think I quit. So I've been out for quite a while. I have no intentions of getting back in. Race cars, no, nothing. I just like doing what we're doing. Watching our customers and watching our products. And I don't have any intentions really. It's fun to be around. Once in a while, you see me in the pits and stuff, but especially in a tractor pulling world, it's good to go give pointers and talk to my customers and stuff like that. But no, I don't know. We're too busy. We have five kids, me and Deena, so it's a lot of work as it is.

Somebody finally beats Dan.

I've got four. My oldest is here with us this week. So yeah, she's 14. Nice.

Man, you guys are busy then.

Yeah.

We're busy. Three boys and then identical twin daughters. They're 10.

Oh, wow. So are the boys working for you guys?

As soon as they get off of school, they come and start scrubbing on turbos and that. They're not putting them together yet, but they're good cleaners.

Well, you come from a farm community type thing. That's just what I mean. Yeah, my kids are the same way. You're pitching in around here. The more I'm working, the less fun we're out having. So might as well pitch in. We'll go do some cool stuff.

We're still involved with farming, too. We have a little home farm that we're thinking around with. That's a little stress relief, is jumping into a tractor and going up and down the field. It's always a lot of fun. So we kind of do some of that, too. And my boys love it, too, the farming. They got diesel pickups they like rooting around with. It's still in our blood. But yeah, turbochargers are definitely a cool thing. And we'll continue to try to make them better and make them go faster. So, yeah.

He built his first turbocharger in the fifth grade.

Oh, yeah. I mounted it on a go-kart. And I was in fifth grade. I drew it all up because, you know, in school, I just, I didn't like school a whole lot. So my mind's always working on something else. So I actually drew a Ninja and mounted the turbo on and everything. Then I went to our shop. My dad had a repair shop. So I got the, you know, the cutting stuff and welding and fabbing. And I made a little manifold, mounted a little thinking turbo on it, made a pipe and everything. It didn't work very good, but it was cool.

Yeah, that's cool.

But that was a long time ago.

I was bird watching in the fifth grade, by the way.

I don't know, you should edit that out, I'm just saying.

But yeah, a lot of history and, you know, performance with us and our family.

Oh, it sounds like it. And we'll definitely have to come out. Today, I found out you guys are not that far from Detroit. So I have to come out for a round two, of course. We're planning a Detroit trip once again for...

Sometime soon.

Sometime in 2025. When it happens, who knows? But I'm really pushing for January. We'll see what happens. But on that note, Dan, do you want to pop the usual three?

Sure.

And then you can do a Minnesota goodbye?

Yeah, this is going to be interesting. So at the end of every episode, we like to ask our guests or guests to pick three cars. We need a track car, a daily driver, and a show car.

You have an unlimited budget.

Unlimited budget, yep. Sorry, I'm rusty at this. It's been a little while since we've...

What do you think? I'm more of a truck guy, so...

You can start. You sound confident.

Well, I know what I would like for a show car. My dad has a 64.5 Mustang that has been in his garage my entire life, and I've never seen it run.

It sounds like any car guy I know.

We can never touch it. I don't think we were even allowed to open it or sit in it, but I've never seen it run, and he was always going to restore it. I would love to see my dad's Mustang restored and go, and be in a show.

That would be great. Awesome.

Yeah, what about like a new car that you think of?

What's your daily driver?

Daily driver.

My minivan. I love it.

With five kids, you have to love it.

I don't have a choice. I have to have it. And I brag about it, you know.

What kind of minivan?

Chrysler Pacifica has the TVs. I told him on the way here, I'm so glad we brought my van. It drives like a living room.

You get tired of the rough ride pickups.

Well, we drove my wife's excursion here. Plenty of room, but it is a little bit of a rougher ride.

Yeah, go with a minivan. I thought I would never ever like my college self, if she heard me saying I love a minivan.

Yeah, I was like, I am not buying one of them ever.

Now it's the first thing he jumps in.

It is.

I gotta go to town, I jump in that instead of my pickup.

It's a great car. But if I didn't need all of that functionality, let's see.

Ryan, some Audi or something.

Yeah, probably. If money was no object, it would be fun to drive a Ferrari.

Ferrari.

Yeah.

Okay. Like the new Ferrari SUV, not an SUV, one of those.

Yeah.

How about track car?

Oh boy, track car. I think I'd be terrified to go down the track.

There's different types of tracks, drag strips.

As you've been hanging out at some of these drag trims, have you got any cars that you really like? Maybe you wouldn't drive it, but you'd be like, that's kind of cool.

Yeah. You know, I went to the Texas 2K earlier this year, and there's a lot of impressive cars at that event.

We'll be there again.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Saw the Lamborghini. Those are really sweet.

GTRs, Lamborghini.

Pull me in one of those.

All right. So a UGR.

Probably a UGR STO, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's about, I have no, I'm kind of like her, same kind of stuff. Whatever she says, I'm-

Yeah. You want to do a different daily?

What's your favorite truck? What are you driving?

You know, I've been Ford my whole life.

Yeah.

But then I bought a GMC. I love that GMC.

Yeah.

Dan was like, aw.

I was. I was all excited, then you disappointed me right away.

Yeah, but I still like Ford.

Well, we still have two Fords.

Yeah.

He has a 1997 Ford F-350 that is mint condition in our barn.

It's got 54,000 miles on it.

Really?

It's all original.

Is it a 7.3 truck?

7.3.

Really?

It was, if you know me, it's pristine because I'm super fussy. So this truck is immaculate. I had it in an air bubble, so it wouldn't get any moisture on it. So when I first bought the truck, it's a 97. So it's last year they had that, you know, that square body. Anyways, I brought it. I used to paint back in the day when I was right out fresh out of high school. I was like, I restored things, you know, I would have, I had a paint booth. So I pulled my truck in my paint booth, took the tires off, and they don't, they put hardly no paint on the frames when you get them brand new back then. Like nothing. I don't even think they painted them. So I went in there and I did an awesome paint job on the whole undercarriage. So that carried through. It's still on there today. But this thing is so nice. I don't even let my boys even breathe on it.

Because they'll want to put aftermarket things on it.

It's all original.

It's probably worth more than you paid for it at this point.

Oh, yeah. I paid $27,000 back in 1996, $27,000. I actually put, right in the dealer's lot, I put leather interior in it. It was not an option back then, it ain't like today. So we took the cloth out and they put leather interior, which is still in it today, which is sweet. It still smells like it did when I bought it. The only time I ever racked up the miles is going to see Deena. You know what I mean? She went to college down in Kentucky. So once in a while, I'd take a little trip down to Kentucky from Michigan, which was like, how many miles? It was quite a ways.

You did let it come out of the barn, and our oldest got to take it to prom. But it was strict rules, right to prom and right back.

Yeah, no parties, no nothing, because it's going to get stolen. I mean, I think it's cool. People think I'm nuts, but it's pretty sweet to have something.

Is it like extended cab, regular cab?

Regular cab, the red, regular cab, long box. It's got the stock wheels and tires, and there's not one thing on it that's not factory. So it's like showroom. It's actually better in showroom condition. Because when I got it, I buffed it and everything when I got it, when it was brand new and painted it. But the original tires and rims and everything are on it, the day I bought it. I had some aftermarket ones, which saved the original ones. I ran them for maybe 20,000 miles of the ford, or 50,000 that's on it. So even the original Firestone tires are still like pristine condition. Wow. I mean, it's a piece I'll probably hold on to forever, because I don't care if somebody offered me 100 grand, I wouldn't sell it.

Was that a daily or a show?

Have to be a show now.

Sounds like a show to me.

It's just cool because you don't see them. In fact, when I drive, I bought a brand new truck, okay, and I go up to our stoplight in our town, nobody even cares, they don't look at you. But when I drive that other one to town, I about cause an accident.

People are like, what is that?

Or they'll stop at a gas station, man, that's freshly restored. I said, nope, that's original. And they're like, what? There ain't no way. I'm like, yep.

That's what my daughter would scream in my ear if we were driving past that truck. She absolutely loves them. She's got one. I've got her. She's only 14, but I've already bought her an OBS F150 that she'll be driving.

They're neat. I mean, that kind of thing is coming back. You know, this old, you know, like, I don't know. It's cool looking. I can't stand driving in it. They're such rough riders.

It's not like a minivan.

It's an F350 and you feel like a rut this, you're like boom.

I would say it rides like a hay wagon.

It does.

It's bad. Yeah, but it's cool.

We got that nailed down. I refuse to let you just be like, I'm taking her answers.

Yeah.

For your track car, would you do another attractor? Maybe do for tractor pulls, I mean?

Well, I did 10 years ago. As soon as I sold our tractor, I bought like a chassis because my intentions was to build another one.

Right.

But I never did. I threw it in the back corner. It was like the whole rolling chassis, tubular frame, roll cage, everything.

Okay.

So we actually, my son drug it out of the barn last year. So he stuck it in the corner closer to my vision or closer to me.

He's got a plan.

Yeah, I bet.

So I thought about maybe, building an engine and restoring it and putting it together. Not for me, but for my boys to pull because it's fun. The adrenaline is just as good as race car driving because when I used to pull, you're hooked up something and your front end comes up and you got the smoke and you got to steer it with brakes and it's cool. I mean, it's a lot more fun driving them than watching them. Because it's like watching paint dry when you're there. When you're on it and you're competitive and you want to beat the next guy, there's a lot of things that you got to think about and do to try it out with the next guy. And it was kind of my thing is, I was a great national champion last year. I had it. So I won like the whole shebang in our circuit. And that's when I gave, that was it. I was done. It was the best time to get out when you're at the top.

Yeah, retired on top, right? Yeah.

So of course, you always have the rumors of cheating and this and that, you know, and it was just like doing turbo stuff and I'll win the next guy. And I mean, it just made us who we are today. So then people wanted me to build their engines and test their engines and build the turbos and everything else. So it become quite a deal for us.

So this might be as controversial as asking what truck you drive, what brand of tractor are you a fan of?

We disagree on this.

Yeah.

Well, my dad and my grandpa, my grandpa started a business which was International Harvester. So he owned a dealership. My dad and his brother bought it out. So my dad was actually owned an international dealership. And then it converted to Case International. So of course, that's my brand, the red brand.

Yeah.

So Case International is like my color. Everything we have is that. But then I'm very into it.

Everything makes the 7.3 also. Yeah, everything's red.

And then my wife, well, we met in high school as I was a senior. So we've been together for 30 years. So her family is all green, John Deere.

Yeah.

So talk about some conversations when I went over there.

Yeah.

They're like those Deere people are like the Green Bay Packers.

Yes.

They're very passionate about that.

Oh yeah. Yeah. But no, I mean, I do have some John Deere equipment now, you know, a couple pieces and I like them. They're all good. Ain't no different pickups. I got a GMC.

Yeah, I know.

I mean, it rides great. I love that truck.

Is that what you're going to lock in for your daily then, a GMC, or you got something else you would do for a daily?

No.

You're telling me a Pacific.

No, no, no.

She's got an excuse.

I would like a brand new Ford, you know, one of the F250s, you know, Ford Orrs.

I'll say Elk's up there.

Yeah.

I mean, that's my thing. I've been looking at them, but she's like, no, no, no, we got to buy more turbo parts. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

That's the problem with your own business, you know. You can't go splurge on yourself because you got to keep your business going.

No.

One of these days, baby.

Yeah. Well, you guys are doing awesome stuff, so I can't imagine that wouldn't be.

It's an exciting journey. Yeah.

It is. It is. It's exciting.

Well, on that note, where can people find you? Do you want people to find you?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can find us at apexturbo.com. We're in the middle of getting a new site to launch on March 1st. It'll be brand new.

That's exciting.

Yes. We're really excited about it. Actually, when we leave here next week, we have a great photo shoot lined up. We're excited about that. So customers have been asking for an improved site, and we're going to deliver it, and I'm so excited about that. That's awesome. They'll be able to find us there.

That's going to bring us way better. You build a shop online. We hope to have Turbos available to purchase online.

Yeah. Accessories.

Like gear. More information. Because we've been going so fast, we haven't had time to stop and even think about social media or websites.

Yeah.

So now we're like, okay, now we got everything's kind of going like a welding machine. Let's try to focus on people reaching out to us and being able to purchase our products. So that's our goal for them.

You heard that, by the way, right? We're too busy breaking world records to do a stupid shop.

That's very nonchalant.

We're old fashioned too. So we really appreciate getting to know our customers. So we like the phone call too. We'll answer the phones. We like to learn about what you're trying to achieve and really build that relationship. So I think that might set us apart too from some of the other turbocharger suppliers.

Call Ryan and Deena and say, you know, Apex.

Yeah, we want to talk to you. We want to get to know what your goals are. We want to get to know that. And that's really hard to do through a website, right?

Yeah, it is. So unless you're absolutely certain what you're after, which, you know, some classes you are. When you know which one you are, if somebody has one that, you know, is that model and you could go buy it. So be it. But it's nice to know the people's stories and get the right fit.

We appreciate reaching us by phone. So and then we have, you know, Facebook and and Instagram. Those actually might be a little bit tougher for us because it can be a little overwhelming, right?

Yeah.

So but if somebody takes the time to make a call and talk to us, that's usually a really good way to get something ready for them.

I'm curious, are either of you avid readers at all? Check out a book called They Ask You Answer. I think you might appreciate it. It's awesome. It's all about the marketing side, getting the customer to know you, the customer journey. That is probably one of three books that changed my life. And it's a big reason for the success of this podcast. So I highly recommend it. I'll try to find the author. I'll send it to you. But they ask you to answer. They also have a program that they coach people on or whatever, too. I attended it through my last job. It was cool, but I like the book more. Yeah, it might be worth checking out. But on that note, this is super awesome, guys. I'm glad I got to finally put faces to names. So thank you for coming on the show.

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, you know, it's fun to talk about like us. I mean, sometimes I get all excited and needed about it. But, you know, I really wish our people knew our passion that we put into our product, because we do. You know, we're in. I mean, of course, everybody wants the money, but it's the passion, you know. It's like what we do to try to make them, you know, achieve their goals and things, you know. It's it's it's all about like our our, you know, our product.

And we want to see them succeed.

Exactly. Meet their goals. And that's a big part of our business.

Yeah, I'm stoked. This is going to be a fun journey to watch.

Yeah.

Well, we'll have to connect with you guys. Well, we're here at PRI, of course, but also next time we're through in that Detroit area.

So definitely.

But thank you so much for coming on. Dan, thanks for existing and we'll see you all next time.